I really like how you emphasized that students should be more involved in their learning, and, thus, teachers should inadvertently teach less. Like you suggested, once students leave our classroom and move on - and in your case to college or post-secondary work - they need to be able to reflect, edit, and continue to learn on their own. And the only way to get students to the point of doing just that, they need to take charge of their learning. As a result, teachers should take the backseat and still be actively involved in student learning, but act more as a guide. Self or peer editing definitely empowers students, because it enables them to evaluate, reflect, and grow in a more self - or collaborative - discovery and authentic way.
Like you experienced with your students, I also have experienced students expressing frustration with peer editing, because, as you say, some students just don't take it as seriously. I've found that, without proper scaffolding - with discussion, examples, and analysis of good/bad forms of editing - students tend to write "good job - I like this" instead of really providing helpful feedback. Even if students aren't the strongest writers, I still feel that, with proper guidance, they can be a good peer editor, because they are an audience member. For example, that student can share when and where they are confused and why while they are reading a student's essay. I'm guilty of not fully preparing my students to be good peer editors; I definitely learned the value teaching students how to be a constructive peer editor the hard way.
I have also heard from my students that after they edit their own writing they are still uncertain because their questions of what's proper/adequate/developed/etc. is left unanswered. You mentioned that your students, as a result, wanted a peer to then edit their essay after they edited their own. That makes sense. What I have done in the past is have students make a bullet list of their questions or concerns about their essay at the top of their essay so that their peer editor has a focus when they read their peer's essay. I've noticed that the established focus helps peer editors because they have a specific goal in mind and not a mentality of "I need to look for everything!" which can be overwhelming.
Peer revising has been a difficult concept for me and how to better foster this practice within my classroom, but (no brainer) I keep trying to do it (Laura had some interesting results on this). I like how you brought up Murray. When we read Murray I was blown away by how much I agreed and was drawn to the idea of how students could be entirely independent (an educators dream; it makes our job easier and makes a students’ experience more genuine and longer lasting).
I liked the questions that students asked. They were more vague but, contrarily, more specific to where an author wants to go and be and what they want their writing to achieve and how. Is this not what we want from writers?
It’s a definitely a confidence boost to see that, though we may not be published author’s or omniscient, students still desire a teacher conference. I’m still waiting to have that Don Murray conferencing!
Yes, true! We are not "famous" but in their eyes, we are a writing professional :) Murray is definitely an inspiration to this whole process. I have one of his books in my Amazon shopping cart....out of print....$78....is it weird to ask for it for Christmas?!
I've been craving more Murray since reading the brief section I got to in our class. I think it'd be a great gift. When we read Murray's research on conferences I was instantly drawn and found obvious connections to Donald Graves. Then Murray mentioned he was friends or pals with Graves and it made perfect sense. I really liked Gravies book "Writing," I'd check that out too.
Haha! And that is so sweet! The one I really want is "The Craft of Revision" (which I see is now available to purchase used for less...), and I guess it's not out of print nor hard to order anymore (and only $68 now)?! Amazon is a fickle friend...
I also examined peer editing for my project, however, I did not include the option of self-editing. I think you posed an interesting idea there. When I asked students what they found most helpful about the research process, most of them stated they thought conferences with me were the most useful because they could have a conversation about the edits. I also agree with Laura that a student's instinct is to write "good job" and move on even if the paper needs major work. I found that students are concerned with insulting another's student work because they in turn don't want their own work insulted.
I actually just read a study on "Peer Review versus Teacher Feedback in Process Writing: How Effective?", where a researcher, Gonca Eski, did a similar study to yours. He determined that it makes no difference whether or not a student versus a teacher provides the feedback. The writer's essay improved similarly for both types of editing. I absolutely disagree, simply based on your findings, particularly with the lack of editing that students do because of frustration or uncertainty they experience when editing. I also found that students need to taught the process in order to be effective editors, and provide examples of papers that have been reviewed well and not so well. I think after all of this, and with continued guidance, students will be become more comfortable with the process and in turn make the revision process more effective.
I find it so interesting how many of the presentations have collided a bit. Yours, Laura's, and Jennifer's all seem to deal with a similar question of how students speak to one another about their writing. I wonder if I could pull off what Jennifer has suggested, to walk students through the process of the art of peer review, so that it's not a waste of time.
It was interesting to me to see how Laura addressed peer review as student comments on each others' blogs. She seemed to find some positive results-- these were open-ended responses, too-- which Jennifer found to be the least helpful on paper. Does blogging help with some of the complications we run into with peer review? Students don't know how to read each others' papers, but maybe they know how to read each others' bogs... maybe. I guess this is a new inquiry project.
Great presentation! I loved the Prezi. I just had some difficultly loading it and making it full screen. I really enjoyed watching your presentation because I did my assessment project on your students work. Therefore, I have an idea of what common issues might crop up in your student’s papers. I have always thought of peer editing as the best way for students to evaluate their work, but now that I have watched your video I am not so sure! I agree with all the factors you have pointed out that influence peer edits. Plenty of times I have had peer editing groups where students were not fully engaged in the process. Once I assigned groups, and it still did not work out perfectly. I really like your idea of having students do their own edits to their work. I am surprised that the results of it were better than peer editing’s. I know myself, and sometimes I cannot see my issues in writing. However, If I had a class I would totally try this method based off of your results. I find it interesting as well that you would have students find another peer, outside of class, to look over their papers. I can see this going in two directions. One, the student actually picks someone who can really help them. Two, they pick their best friend who might try to help them, but also might just glance at it. I also had this horrible thought that someone might make up a person and peer-edit themselves again without critically analyzing their text a second time. Would it not be wonderful if someone peer edited themselves again and did critically think about it! For me, I would probably have been like “mom look at this!”
I like that you touch upon asking the right questions during peer conferencing. This is always important and can be overlooked. It would be nice, as well, to have more time to do teacher conferencing. However, it is important for students to first edit their papers before this even happens. By doing this there are steps in the process before they see you. Have you ever thought about giving students writing goals? I am not sure if you have written about it during discussion, but now that I have written all about target goals in the classroom, I can see how giving students individual writing goals for their needs would be beneficial.
I enjoyed your presentation and the way you put it all together!
Also--Lesley--your students are very smart!
They are telling you and all of us that Peer Editing is not always enough for them!
I think Peer Editing should be used, but it is only one step to help students to become better writers.
Lesley--you say one thing some of your students like about Peer Editing is it gives the students "another set of eyes" and some feedback.
This is what the small group of students who I worked with this semester told me too.
I know I only worked with a small group, but I learned so much from them.
And the gifted student Julius who I worked with would be a great student to help another student with Peer Editing because he gets "A"s on his papers and he is very good at critical reading and writing, and the other students would be okay partners for Peer Editing too, but the other students would not be able to provide all the help the other students need because they are not authorities on good writing.
Here are the steps I came up with:
1.Students read and discuss the literature.
2. Students write a rough draft of their papers and peer edit for editing and revision problems.
3. A teacher makes comments on students' papers for editing and revision problems, and then teaches mini-lessons on the most common patterned-grammar errors in students' papers.
4. A student takes all this assessment data and does a self-assessment and reflects upon his or her writing, and then the student himself or herself makes the final editing and revision changes in his or her paper for a final grade.
I too want the student to get to the point of being able to find and fix their own errors as well as be able to revise any needed changes.
I think it's great to give students the power to do Peer Editing, but I hope everyone remembers the teacher is the one giving the student the grade. When I worked as a tutor at a college--students would ask me--is my paper okay the way it is? And I would tell them--to me it is, but your teacher is the one who is giving you the grade--so you need to find out what the teacher wants. Peers can help students to go in right direction, and peer editing is a good idea and can be very useful, but students also need to have the comments from the teacher as well because the teacher is the "boss" and the person who is giving the students their grades. Thanks again Lesley for this interesting presentation! --Michelle
I really like how you emphasized that students should be more involved in their learning, and, thus, teachers should inadvertently teach less. Like you suggested, once students leave our classroom and move on - and in your case to college or post-secondary work - they need to be able to reflect, edit, and continue to learn on their own. And the only way to get students to the point of doing just that, they need to take charge of their learning. As a result, teachers should take the backseat and still be actively involved in student learning, but act more as a guide. Self or peer editing definitely empowers students, because it enables them to evaluate, reflect, and grow in a more self - or collaborative - discovery and authentic way.
ReplyDeleteLike you experienced with your students, I also have experienced students expressing frustration with peer editing, because, as you say, some students just don't take it as seriously. I've found that, without proper scaffolding - with discussion, examples, and analysis of good/bad forms of editing - students tend to write "good job - I like this" instead of really providing helpful feedback. Even if students aren't the strongest writers, I still feel that, with proper guidance, they can be a good peer editor, because they are an audience member. For example, that student can share when and where they are confused and why while they are reading a student's essay. I'm guilty of not fully preparing my students to be good peer editors; I definitely learned the value teaching students how to be a constructive peer editor the hard way.
I have also heard from my students that after they edit their own writing they are still uncertain because their questions of what's proper/adequate/developed/etc. is left unanswered. You mentioned that your students, as a result, wanted a peer to then edit their essay after they edited their own. That makes sense. What I have done in the past is have students make a bullet list of their questions or concerns about their essay at the top of their essay so that their peer editor has a focus when they read their peer's essay. I've noticed that the established focus helps peer editors because they have a specific goal in mind and not a mentality of "I need to look for everything!" which can be overwhelming.
Peer revising has been a difficult concept for me and how to better foster this practice within my classroom, but (no brainer) I keep trying to do it (Laura had some interesting results on this). I like how you brought up Murray. When we read Murray I was blown away by how much I agreed and was drawn to the idea of how students could be entirely independent (an educators dream; it makes our job easier and makes a students’ experience more genuine and longer lasting).
ReplyDeleteI liked the questions that students asked. They were more vague but, contrarily, more specific to where an author wants to go and be and what they want their writing to achieve and how. Is this not what we want from writers?
It’s a definitely a confidence boost to see that, though we may not be published author’s or omniscient, students still desire a teacher conference. I’m still waiting to have that Don Murray conferencing!
Yes, true! We are not "famous" but in their eyes, we are a writing professional :) Murray is definitely an inspiration to this whole process. I have one of his books in my Amazon shopping cart....out of print....$78....is it weird to ask for it for Christmas?!
DeleteI've been craving more Murray since reading the brief section I got to in our class. I think it'd be a great gift. When we read Murray's research on conferences I was instantly drawn and found obvious connections to Donald Graves. Then Murray mentioned he was friends or pals with Graves and it made perfect sense. I really liked Gravies book "Writing," I'd check that out too.
DeleteLesley - what's the book? If I have it, maybe I'll make an early Christmas present pdf :)
DeleteHaha! And that is so sweet! The one I really want is "The Craft of Revision" (which I see is now available to purchase used for less...), and I guess it's not out of print nor hard to order anymore (and only $68 now)?! Amazon is a fickle friend...
DeleteHow many people get this Murray present? I need Murray on my brain. Then again, if I need it this much I should probably give him the dough.
DeleteI also examined peer editing for my project, however, I did not include the option of self-editing. I think you posed an interesting idea there. When I asked students what they found most helpful about the research process, most of them stated they thought conferences with me were the most useful because they could have a conversation about the edits. I also agree with Laura that a student's instinct is to write "good job" and move on even if the paper needs major work. I found that students are concerned with insulting another's student work because they in turn don't want their own work insulted.
ReplyDeleteI actually just read a study on "Peer Review versus Teacher Feedback in Process Writing: How Effective?", where a researcher, Gonca Eski, did a similar study to yours. He determined that it makes no difference whether or not a student versus a teacher provides the feedback. The writer's essay improved similarly for both types of editing. I absolutely disagree, simply based on your findings, particularly with the lack of editing that students do because of frustration or uncertainty they experience when editing. I also found that students need to taught the process in order to be effective editors, and provide examples of papers that have been reviewed well and not so well. I think after all of this, and with continued guidance, students will be become more comfortable with the process and in turn make the revision process more effective.
I find it so interesting how many of the presentations have collided a bit. Yours, Laura's, and Jennifer's all seem to deal with a similar question of how students speak to one another about their writing. I wonder if I could pull off what Jennifer has suggested, to walk students through the process of the art of peer review, so that it's not a waste of time.
ReplyDeleteIt was interesting to me to see how Laura addressed peer review as student comments on each others' blogs. She seemed to find some positive results-- these were open-ended responses, too-- which Jennifer found to be the least helpful on paper. Does blogging help with some of the complications we run into with peer review? Students don't know how to read each others' papers, but maybe they know how to read each others' bogs... maybe. I guess this is a new inquiry project.
But anyway, thanks for the presentation!
Great presentation! I loved the Prezi. I just had some difficultly loading it and making it full screen. I really enjoyed watching your presentation because I did my assessment project on your students work. Therefore, I have an idea of what common issues might crop up in your student’s papers. I have always thought of peer editing as the best way for students to evaluate their work, but now that I have watched your video I am not so sure! I agree with all the factors you have pointed out that influence peer edits. Plenty of times I have had peer editing groups where students were not fully engaged in the process. Once I assigned groups, and it still did not work out perfectly. I really like your idea of having students do their own edits to their work. I am surprised that the results of it were better than peer editing’s. I know myself, and sometimes I cannot see my issues in writing. However, If I had a class I would totally try this method based off of your results. I find it interesting as well that you would have students find another peer, outside of class, to look over their papers. I can see this going in two directions. One, the student actually picks someone who can really help them. Two, they pick their best friend who might try to help them, but also might just glance at it. I also had this horrible thought that someone might make up a person and peer-edit themselves again without critically analyzing their text a second time. Would it not be wonderful if someone peer edited themselves again and did critically think about it! For me, I would probably have been like “mom look at this!”
ReplyDeleteI like that you touch upon asking the right questions during peer conferencing. This is always important and can be overlooked. It would be nice, as well, to have more time to do teacher conferencing. However, it is important for students to first edit their papers before this even happens. By doing this there are steps in the process before they see you. Have you ever thought about giving students writing goals? I am not sure if you have written about it during discussion, but now that I have written all about target goals in the classroom, I can see how giving students individual writing goals for their needs would be beneficial.
-Bethany
Hi Lesley,
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed your presentation and the way you put it all together!
Also--Lesley--your students are very smart!
They are telling you and all of us that Peer Editing is not always enough for them!
I think Peer Editing should be used, but it is only one step to help students to become better writers.
Lesley--you say one thing some of your students like about Peer Editing is it gives the students "another set of eyes" and some feedback.
This is what the small group of students who I worked with this semester told me too.
I know I only worked with a small group, but I learned so much from them.
And the gifted student Julius who I worked with would be a great student to help another student with Peer Editing because he gets "A"s on his papers and he is very good at critical reading and writing, and the other students would be okay partners for Peer Editing too, but the other students would not be able to provide all the help the other students need because they are not authorities on good writing.
Here are the steps I came up with:
1.Students read and discuss the literature.
2. Students write a rough draft of their papers and peer edit for editing and revision problems.
3. A teacher makes comments on students' papers for editing and revision problems, and then teaches mini-lessons on the most common patterned-grammar errors in students' papers.
4. A student takes all this assessment data and does a self-assessment and reflects upon his or her writing, and then the student himself or herself makes the final editing and revision changes in his or her paper for a final grade.
I too want the student to get to the point of being able to find and fix their own errors as well as be able to revise any needed changes.
I think it's great to give students the power to do Peer Editing, but I hope everyone remembers the teacher is the one giving the student the grade. When I worked as a tutor at a college--students would ask me--is my paper okay the way it is? And I would tell them--to me it is, but your teacher is the one who is giving you the grade--so you need to find out what the teacher wants. Peers can help students to go in right direction, and peer editing is a good idea and can be very useful, but students also need to have the comments from the teacher as well because the teacher is the "boss" and the person who is giving the students their grades. Thanks again Lesley for this interesting presentation! --Michelle